|
Debate 14: Alcohol Prohibition
|
| ninja |
Posted on 05/16/2012 13:12:27
|
Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
|
This was sparked by an xfire conversation I was having with Grimm just now. So ...
Should alcohol be prohibited? Why?
Why should the laws be any different to those for so-called 'harder' drugs such as cocaine, ecstasy, acid, and heroin?
If not, should the drinking age be raised? Why?
Should it be lowered?
Our Xfire conversation, only if you're interested .... :
[17:38] [ZÅ]ninja: what is the subject of the essay?
[17:40] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: prohibition, it is a research paper so it has a wide thesis
[17:40] [ZÅ]ninja: prohibition of what/
[17:41] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: oh so prohibition of alcohol in in1920's unitedstates
[17:41] [ZÅ]ninja: was it a good thing?
[17:42] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: deifinitely not lol, it spawned al capone,machine, gun kelley,john dillinger. it also causedthe death of thousands of americans, and is generally regarded as a failed social experiment
[17:43] [ZÅ]ninja: Fair enough
[17:43] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: lol i thought u lived in america?
[17:43] [ZÅ]ninja: but does that mean you would condone alcohol as a good introduction to society?
[17:43] [ZÅ]ninja: I live in the UK
[17:44] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: its ok as long as its not being abused that was the problem with law it didnt differ between alcohol as a drink or alcohol as a drug
[17:44] [ZÅ]ninja: alcohol is a drug that you drink
[17:44] [ZÅ]ninja: no distinction needed
[17:45] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: what about wine?
[17:45] [ZÅ]ninja: wine is alcohol...
[17:45] [ZÅ]ninja: did you think itwas coloured water?
[17:46] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: yea but wine is involved with several religions, would u consider them to be advocating drug use? btw if this is too personal for you i apologize im not trying to offend u
[17:46] [ZÅ]ninja: yes, yes I would
[17:46] [ZÅ]ninja: Im not a big fan of religion on the whole
[17:46] [ZÅ]ninja: You might have noticed in the debate on God that i made
[17:47] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: me either but i think theres a difference between a glass of wine with dinner and drinking becuase you dont want to rember anything
[17:47] [ZÅ]ninja: I think that if alcohol was "discovered" today, it would be outlawed immediately
[17:48] [ZÅ]ninja: It is a really dangerous, toxic substance
[17:49] [ZÅ]ninja: I think the issue is that society has become too accustomed to alcohol
[17:49] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: i guess but there also benefits to it
[17:49] [ZÅ]ninja: it has become a means of escape from the "horrors" of day-to-day life, when really there are much less damaging ways to escape
[17:49] [ZÅ]ninja: name a benefit...
[17:50] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: the are numerous medicinal purposes, food cooking.
[17:50] [ZÅ]ninja: Medical purposes? enlighten me
[17:50] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: and alcohol is onnly used as a crutch for people who are not stable enough to drink
[17:51] [ZÅ]ninja: what?
[17:51] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: what you are talking about is when alcohol is abused but there are plenty of people out there who drink responsibly.
[17:52] [ZÅ]ninja: some people ruining it for the rest ... true of all good things in life
[17:53] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: and if your going to use that veiw on alcohol then it also applies to snacks, and painkillers
[17:53] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: also with nuclear power
[17:53] [ZÅ]ninja: I disagree
[17:53] [ZÅ]ninja: snacks aren't damaging
[17:53] [ZÅ]ninja: We need food to survive - we don't need ethanol
[17:54] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: there are to the people who die of heart attacks and suffer obesity becuase they eat junk food in order to cope with pain.
[17:54] [ZÅ]ninja: I don't condone junk food
[17:54] [ZÅ]ninja: It's a waste of space
[17:55] [ZÅ]ninja: I've been to MacDonald's 2 times in my life - once for a friend's party and once because they was no other food available
[17:56] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: my point is anything that canb be abused will be abused there is no way to stop it , we can offer help and show reason why not to abuse it but we will never stop it
[17:56] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: take beta blockers for an example
[17:56] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: they were invented to help people with heart problems but now they are abused by performers to help with stress
[17:56] [ZÅ]ninja: I don't know much about them, but OK
[17:57] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: i had to do a report on performance enchancing drugs for health
[17:57] [ZÅ]ninja: Ah, so I'm breaching an area of knowledge for you...
[17:57] [ZÅ]ninja: shouldn't have started this :P
[17:58] [ZÅ]ninja: I stilll don't think you've convinced me that alcohol should be legal
[17:58] [ZÅ] GRIMM~ADMIN: lol yep :P we should started a debate thread about this and post our convo
Edited by ninja on 05/16/2012 13:13:42
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
| |
|
|
| za heystarface |
Posted on 05/16/2012 13:19:53
|
Admin
Posts: 6130
Joined: 20.11.10
|
Very good question. There are so many different walks of life and so many different beliefs. So many different social aspects and styles of parenting. The variations in the parts that make up a whole adult are very unique. It is hard to say that for ALL people alcohol is bad, or good, or neither. It is unfair to take a right away from someone that is responsible and does no harm and is happy and healthy. It is unfair to punish the whole and limit the rights of the whole because some people weren't raised in a home or society or school or group of friends with enough sense or self respect to care about the harm done.
I think it should be legal because I don't want any more of MY rights taken away because of OTHER stupid people.
I think there should be more education on sex, drugs, and alcohol in public schools and churches, etc.
Little by little our freedoms and rights are taken away for "our own good." The losers always ruin it for the rest of us. Just because its bad, doesn't mean it should be illegal, people should be free to make up their own mind if they want to drink or not.
 |
| |
|
|
| ZA reaper |
Posted on 05/16/2012 13:32:12
|
Wanker
Posts: 871
Joined: 15.11.10
|
za heystarface wrote:
Very good question. There are so many different walks of life and so many different beliefs. So many different social aspects and styles of parenting. The variations in the parts that make up a whole adult are very unique. It is hard to say that for ALL people alcohol is bad, or good, or neither. It is unfair to take a right away from someone that is responsible and does no harm and is happy and healthy. It is unfair to punish the whole and limit the rights of the whole because some people weren't raised in a home or society or school or group of friends with enough sense or self respect to care about the harm done.
I think it should be legal because I don't want any more of MY rights taken away because of OTHER stupid people.
I think there should be more education on sex, drugs, and alcohol in public schools and churches, etc.
Little by little our freedoms and rights are taken away for "our own good." The losers always ruin it for the rest of us. Just because its bad, doesn't mean it should be illegal, people should be free to make up their own mind if they want to drink or not.
that was the argument i was making with the beta blockers and fast food
 |
| |
|
|
| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 05/16/2012 13:47:52
|
ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
|
Well, as Grimm said, the US tried to ban alcohol in the 20s and look where that got them.
If I may just bring up this graph again:
.svg/380px-Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg.png)
So as you can see (obviously this isn't a definitive answer but it's a good guide) both alcohol and tobacco are more dangerous than illegal drugs like cannabis. Ninja's coming at it from the point of view that 'we should illegalise alcohol to keep it in line with other drugs' but I'm thinking 'why not legalise other drugs to keep them in line with alcohol?'
Imagine if the government banned alcohol or cigarettes - they couldn't. America tried and it failed. We're so used to alcohol as a society that if it was banned it would just be sold illegally instead.
Some people abuse alcohol and use it to gradually slip into a coma on Friday nights but if you're sensible about it then there's not reason you shouldn't have it. As for health benefits that Grimm mentioned:
Benefits of alcohol
Alcohol consumed in moderation is thought to help reduce the risk of heart disease. Indeed, alcohol consumption in conjunction with high intakes of fruit and vegetables may well explain the so-called 'French paradox'. The French diet is considered to be very high in fat, especially saturated fat, yet the death rate from coronary heart disease (CHD) remains relatively low.
A research study published in 1992 suggested that the low death rates from CHD could be due to the relatively high consumption of wine in France. A similar pattern of diet and alcohol consumption has also been found in other south European countries where heart disease rates are also lower compared with other parts of the world.
These observations prompted a long series of research studies analysing the relationship between wine and CHD.
It's still not entirely clear how alcohol reduces your risk of CHD, but it's now known a large proportion of the risk reduction is due to moderate alcohol intake raising 'good' cholesterol concentrations in the blood, so reducing the risk of blood clots.
Red wine, in particular, also contains flavonoids that act as antioxidants, which help to reduce the build up of atherosclerosis (when fat builds up on the inner walls of arteries). Red wine seems to help maintain the flexibility of the blood vessel walls.
Source: BBC
So no, alcohol should still be legal and if you bring up the argument that other drugs like marijuana are banned then let's legalise that instead then, shall we?
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
 |
| |
|
|
| Carnage |
Posted on 05/16/2012 13:55:37
|
Super Admin
Posts: 4245
Joined: 28.09.11
|
GIVE ME BOOZE OR GIVE ME DEATH!!!
lol but seriously I don't think the government should be trying to govern anything with regards as to what people choose to ingest. I do not think people should be allowed to drive drunk but I also think that if people want to drink in the privacy of their own home then they should be completely free to do so.
Edited by Carnage on 05/16/2012 13:56:03
"Hey guys, I just bought this thing called a sight ward...so it's GG." - MasterA in League of Legends
 |
| |
|
|
| ZA numpty |
Posted on 05/16/2012 17:19:32
|
ShawnPeezy
Posts: 4430
Joined: 16.11.10
|
They tried prohibition in the past, and it didn't work. They will find a way to make alcohol. That is where moonshine came from. |
| |
|
|
| za heystarface |
Posted on 05/16/2012 17:22:18
|
Admin
Posts: 6130
Joined: 20.11.10
|
Ppl will drink hairspray, like in this documentary I saw on how America has turned its Native American communities in alcoholic infested poor houses.
Very sad documentary.
|
| |
|
|
| Dudeman |
Posted on 05/16/2012 19:56:19
|
Super Admin
Posts: 1277
Joined: 03.01.12
|
*Cough* Hat that chart is a bullshit. *endcough* Anyone who thinks the physical harm of LSD, GHB, and Ex is below that of Tobacco and Alcohol's, is dangerously naive. Unless that just means on your physical body, instead of the mind they are mistaken.
Btw 20mg of Amphetamine lasts a good 6 hours. Coke lasts like 30mins max of that amount. That chart i repeat is bs
Edited by Dudeman on 05/16/2012 20:02:49
 |
| |
|
|
| ZA ChAr |
Posted on 05/16/2012 22:29:03
|
Senior Member
Posts: 309
Joined: 17.12.10
|
i probably shouldn't be saying anything since im to young to drink alcohol but i do agree that it still should be legal because, as said above, it is only the stupid people who abuse their use of alcohol and ruin it for everyone else. I also think that if alcohol is prohibited that wine and other religious alcoholic drinks not be prohibited for the purpose they serve. And just to say.... if you outlawed alcohol the black market would just be getting richer....
  |
| |
|
|
| tim |
Posted on 05/16/2012 22:52:45
|
Member
Posts: 164
Joined: 09.10.11
|
Personal Wish:
Alcohol should be illegal I can't seem to comprehend any positive outcome that would arrive from the consumption of alcohol. It may have it's benefits to improve circulation in your body but weigh that reason to the other things that it can do. Main reason is being completely intoxicated. When I used to watch my Dad wasted it wasn't a pretty sight. Drunk driving is also a major problem. I've seen people's lives ruined due to some irresponsible idiot who had one to many beers. Each year, approximately 16,000 people die due to a traffic collisions involving drunk drivers. That is a lot of dead people and grieving families due to alcohol. I don't know if you guys know about a story of a girl named Jacqueline Saburido. She was hit by a drunk driver while driving with her friends and her friend was killed on impact. Her car started to catch on fire and Jacqueline was left inside to slowly burn until someone pulled her out. She was about 21 years old and now she lives the rest of her life horribly disfigured. I don't want to post a pic of her because it's pretty graphic but google her before and after picture. It is absolutely terrible.
Realistically:
It is and probably always will stay legal due to the fact of many people already using it with control and that in moderation alcohol really can't do any harm. But of course there are other people out there who abuse this depressant they so happily drink.
Just my two cents. |
| |
|
|
| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 05/17/2012 03:54:09
|
ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
|
Alcohol is bad because it's man made, end of story. |
| |
|
|
| ninja |
Posted on 05/17/2012 08:25:01
|
Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
|
@People have the right to be free to drink what they want.
The government has a duty to protect its citizens from harmful substances and they should and must do that by making laws prohibiting these substances. Such laws have already been introduced for drugs such as cocaine and heroin, but have yet to be made for alcohol.
Why is this? It's due to an immoral government which is more concerned with gleaning profit from taxation of alcohol that it is with protecting the health of its citizens.
This isn't a matter of having a right to drink, but a matter of having a right to be protected from this harmful chemical.
@Hat's graph and related argument.
So, my point of view is "we should illegalise alcohol to keep it in line with other drugs"? OK, by all means, yes - especially if it is, like you claim, MORE dangerous than the other ones. But we don't even need to compare it to other drugs - we can see, even in isolation, that alcohol is harmful. In the UK alone, alcohol is responsible for 33,000 deaths a year (according to the Academy of Medical Sciences).
What I don't understand is how you could possibly claim that it would be a reasonable and intelligent decision on behalf of the government to introduce more harmful substances to society? You wouldn't hand a dagger to a baby (I hope!). Don't tempt fate with alcohol, either.
@Health benefits that Hat posted from the BBC.
There are plenty of other ways of getting low density lipoproteins, which make up so-called 'good' cholesterol, into your diet without putting your body at risk due to the bad physical and mental effects of alcohol. The same applies to antioxidants. It's like a poisoned apple (literally in the case of cider) - looks healthy if you look at it from one perspective, but when you know what else is in it, you realise how deadly it is.
@Black market problem / previous attempts in America
This isn't a problem with the proposed ban on alcohol itself, but rather with the way it is enforced. If the government really cares about the health of its citizens, it can put in a proper effort to control and prohibit alcohol.
@Some people use it in moderation, why should they be affected?
It's not only the binge drinkers themselves who are affected by their excessive alcohol intake - other people have to bear the consequences, too. For example, earlier this week I was walking home when some intoxicated youths were walking towards me, lurching about. One of them barged into me, and slammed me against the wall - and they all trudged on, laughing. Thankfully, it was just a little bruise, but if I had been an elderly lady, say, they could have seriously injured me.
Another example of this effect, like Tim mentioned, is drink-driving. In 2008, according to the Department for Transport in Great Britain, there were 8,620 alcohol-related road accidents, and 2,020 people were killed or seriously injured as a result.
It is not fair that members of society who lead a healthy lifestyle should be affected by those who don't. By enforcing alcohol prohibition, we can eliminate all of these problems.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
| |
|
|
| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 05/17/2012 08:46:49
|
ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
|
Ok so say the government does decide to ban alcohol I still don't believe that the government has the power or resources to 'put in a proper effort to control and prohibit alcohol.' The government has enough trouble keeping cannabis smokers under control but something as widespread as alcohol? Without spending many, many extra billions on enforcement there's no way the government could control it and with the deficit of about a trillion pounds in Britain (I think - might have to check that) and another fifteen trillion dollars in America, now's really not the time.
As for the government really caring about the health of its citizens - do they? Really? Sorry to bring old times into it but public health in the nineteenth century was a nightmare and the government only decided to do something when the Thames outside the Houses of Parliament was full of raw sewage and the working class was given the vote. In principal, I don't think much has changed; it's our vote the majority of politicians care about, not us.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
|
| |
|
|
| ninja |
Posted on 05/17/2012 10:35:11
|
Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
|
The Hat of Love wrote:
Ok so say the government does decide to ban alcohol I still don't believe that the government has the power or resources to 'put in a proper effort to control and prohibit alcohol.' The government has enough trouble keeping cannabis smokers under control but something as widespread as alcohol? Without spending many, many extra billions on enforcement there's no way the government could control it and with the deficit of about a trillion pounds in Britain (I think - might have to check that) and another fifteen trillion dollars in America, now's really not the time.
You're not taking into account all of the money that's currently wasted on alcohol:
According to www.parliament.uk, the government spends almost £18 million on alcohol information and education campaigns.
The BBC reports that "Britain's binge drinking culture is costing the country £20 billion a year, according to a government report." (http://news.bbc.c...121440.stm). Just to pick out a few numbers from that article: 17 million working days are lost due to alcohol related illnesses and hangovers, costing the economy £6.4 billion. The cost to the NHS, who have to deal with alcohol related injuries rather than treating people really in need, is estimated at £1.7 billion. Further billions are spent clearing up after alcohol-related crime and social problems.
The Hat of Love wrote:
As for the government really caring about the health of its citizens - do they? Really? Sorry to bring old times into it but public health in the nineteenth century was a nightmare and the government only decided to do something when the Thames outside the Houses of Parliament was full of raw sewage and the working class was given the vote. In principal, I don't think much has changed; it's our vote the majority of politicians care about, not us.
Perhaps Cameron and his sidekick don't really care - but that doesn't take away from the fact the government is obliged to protect its citizens. If it doesn't, it's failed as a government. I'm arguing this as a matter of principal - the elected leaders of a country have a moral obligation to do what is right for the population.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
| |
|
|
| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 05/17/2012 10:40:05
|
ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
|
... touché
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
|
| |
|
|
| RazNinjaMike |
Posted on 05/17/2012 11:11:15
|
Moderator
Posts: 4586
Joined: 20.11.10
|
instead of making a wall-o-text of how alcohol can be use as a good thing for those "of age. i'm just going to say. It should remain how it is....But the punishment for underage drinking needs to be A LOT more severe... All these dumbass little noobs drinking now-a-days have caused a lot of problems for others. Whether they killed someone or injured them. Or family being in debt of bilsl forever because the punishment isn't harsh enough. imo. a good punishment would be jail time for 30 days of those who got .08 or higher..........
I know many kids who still drink now, done really over the top dumb shit, that they can't take back. Giving other people handicap for rest of their life........ya.
BUT! There actually a issue, bigger than this imo...but that shall be held in next debate.. |
| |
|
|
| ninja |
Posted on 05/17/2012 13:18:44
|
Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
|
I think it would be naive to think that only young people abuse alcohol.
In a survey conducted by the NHS in 2011 (http://www.ic.nhs...d_2011.pdf), "26% of men reported drinking more than 21 units in an average week. For women, 18% reported drinking more than 14 units in an average week." That's a quarter of men - i.e. not under age citizens, drinking too much alcohol. This isn't a problem which can be assigned just to youths - it applies to all age groups from about 15 through, say, 80.
Another interesting figure in that report is, "In 2009/10, there were 1,057,000 alcohol related admissions to hospital. This is an increase of 12% on the 2008/09 figure (945,500) and more than twice as many as in 2002/03 (510,800). " The issue is only getting worse - about time we brought an end to it.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
| |
|
|
| PirateKing |
Posted on 05/17/2012 13:27:14
|
Numpty
Posts: 1128
Joined: 01.03.12
|
we tried it once as was said. it just made driking worse. lol i think its a bad thing to drink but if we made it illegal it would increase the amount of people using it cause its forbidden
 |
| |
|
|
| Phoenix |
Posted on 05/17/2012 23:34:06
|
ShawnPeezy
Posts: 2309
Joined: 16.04.11
|
Nope. America tried it once and history shows the results. You can argue we live in different times now, but in the end, humanity stays the same. History repeats itself. It will never be prohibited again. Just my little input.
 |
| |
|
|
| Drkinferno |
Posted on 05/18/2012 11:20:35
|
Wanker
Posts: 908
Joined: 11.05.11
|
NOPE. beer is good beer is good beer is good. YAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH BEEEEEEEEEERRRRR IS GOOD! "'DUDE i think you had enough" NO! BEER IS GOOOD!
so in conclusion, beer is good, no need to ban it |
| |
|
