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Debate 10: God
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 09/08/2012 15:49:49
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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Please do not connect me and the Bible. I believe the Bible is not original, like it has been changed over time since it was first written to now. For me to read the Bible I need to see the original one, if not, I see the Bible as any other book. But of course it is the best seller of all times, better than Harry Potter.
I really don't like those animal-loving extremists. Or those people that think we humans and animals deserve the same right. If we do, why can't animals rationalize with us, so we can live together.
Communication is important. And we actually do communicate with animals, but we have to get down to their level. They can't come to our level though, why is that?
Everyone, try to put yourself in the "shoes" of a duck. Think about how it feels being them... BUT REMEMBER they cannot think like us, they just DO IT... |
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 09/08/2012 15:55:37
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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They can't come to our level because they are not intelligent. Different species get by in different ways. Many species survive by strength and sharp teeth. Some survive by disguise and speed. Humans survive by intelligence.
Intelligence happens to be humans' defining trait. But we're lacking in other ways. Asking why a fish can't reason with us is like asking why we can't win a fistfight with a bear. We just can't, we haven't evolved as such.
And I'm not an animal loving extremist but animals still deserve respect. Are you suggested that intelligence makes us better? Are you better and dominant over a human with a lower intelligence than yourself?
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 09/08/2012 16:04:57
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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The Hat of Love wrote:
They can't come to our level because they are not intelligent. Different species get by in different ways. Many species survive by strength and sharp teeth. Some survive by disguise and speed. Humans survive by intelligence.
Intelligence happens to be humans' defining trait. But we're lacking in other ways. Asking why a fish can't reason with us is like asking why we can't win a fistfight with a bear. We just can't, we haven't evolved as such.
And I'm not an animal loving extremist but animals still deserve respect. Are you suggested that intelligence makes us better? Are you better and dominant over a human with a lower intelligence than yourself?
Why would we fistfight a bear, that's why we use our intelligence to make weapons...we just shoot the bear with a powerful weapon, oh and aim it at their head, because we know with our intelligence they die instantly if shot at the brain. I never said we are better just because we are smarter. Animals and plants were made for us to use. So asking me if we are better than them is an invalid question.
Yes animals deserve respect, like we cannot go around kicking cats just cuz we feel like it, but if we have to kick a cat to death for food, then it's okay. Ask yourself this: why would you ever mistreat an animal? The only answer is if you have a mental problem/issue. |
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 09/08/2012 16:34:18
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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I was making a comparison - we can't kill a lion with our bare hands anymore than a frog can discuss the morality of the death penalty.
I agree with most of that, apart from 'Animals and plants were made for us to use.' No, we all evolved from basic cells, we've all evolved in this world alongside each other. They have just as much a right to be here as we do. They are not created for us, we have adapted to use them.
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| matrix12345 |
Posted on 09/08/2012 16:48:02
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Junior Member
Posts: 38
Joined: 26.08.12
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The Hat of Love wrote:
Mole, even most Christians dont' take the Bible completely literally. Much of it, particularly the old testament, is simplified and more to do with moral stories than a record of history.
This year in my Bible class at school, we are studying mainly the Old Testament. And the 1st thing he said was: People who say "ahh nah, the old testament r full of stories..only the new testament is important."....and you wanna know what he called them ? He called them "complete idiots". The Old Testament is the FOUNDATION of the Bible. It would take days for me to explain it JUST HOW IMPORTANT is it.
The Hat of Love wrote:
I have heard that there were originally more humans that God created but the Catholic church simplified it to just Adam and Eve for whatever reason.
Wrong. The Bible says that on the 6th day, he created ONE man frmo dust and while that man (Adam) was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and formed ONE woman (Eve).
The Hat of Love wrote:
What I get from it is that the Church does not take the Bible literally. The Church does not disregard the scientific evidence, as you are, but says that evolution, however the universe came into existence, the formation of stars, etc. may have happened exactly like scientists say they did but under the influence of God.
So what it's saying (what these Christians are saying) is that the scientific theories about stuff are correct but that God was overseeing all of it. It also says that evolution did happen. What it says is that the human body evolved from other animals but the human soul was made by God.
No those Christians are NOT correct. There are some People who TRY to merge the theory of Evolution and Creation. There is no such thing. I only believe in Creation. Everything did not merely "form in the influence of God." He CREATED THEM BY SAYING. |
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 09/08/2012 16:58:25
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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matrix12345 wrote:
The Hat of Love wrote:
Mole, even most Christians dont' take the Bible completely literally. Much of it, particularly the old testament, is simplified and more to do with moral stories than a record of history.
This year in my Bible class at school, we are studying mainly the Old Testament. And the 1st thing he said was: People who say "ahh nah, the old testament r full of stories..only the new testament is important."....and you wanna know what he called them ? He called them "complete idiots". The Old Testament is the FOUNDATION of the Bible. It would take days for me to explain it JUST HOW IMPORTANT is it.
The Hat of Love wrote:
I have heard that there were originally more humans that God created but the Catholic church simplified it to just Adam and Eve for whatever reason.
Wrong. The Bible says that on the 6th day, he created ONE man frmo dust and while that man (Adam) was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and formed ONE woman (Eve).
The Hat of Love wrote:
What I get from it is that the Church does not take the Bible literally. The Church does not disregard the scientific evidence, as you are, but says that evolution, however the universe came into existence, the formation of stars, etc. may have happened exactly like scientists say they did but under the influence of God.
So what it's saying (what these Christians are saying) is that the scientific theories about stuff are correct but that God was overseeing all of it. It also says that evolution did happen. What it says is that the human body evolved from other animals but the human soul was made by God.
No those Christians are NOT correct. There are some People who TRY to merge the theory of Evolution and Creation. There is no such thing. I only believe in Creation. Everything did not merely "form in the influence of God." He CREATED THEM BY SAYING.
This debate is making my face hurt. You're not even listening to a lot of what I'm saying. For example, what I said was that the Church simplified the Bible in the Middle Ages. Do you think the English version was the original? No, it was mostly Hebrew and a lot has been changed in the last two thousand years thanks to editing and translation.
Mole, please, like Ninja asked you, take a while to think for yourself. People have told you that this stuff is the truth all your life and you believe it. I hope some day you can think for yourself. If not stop believing in God, at least some day concede the overwhelming evidence that the Earth is ancient and that stories like Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark didn't actually happen.
What I would like to do here is go and find a small fraction of evidence for the age of the earth but, judging by your reactions so far, all you would do is throw it back at me and tell me that exactly what the Bible says is exactly true without actually thinking about it.
You don't have to just repeat what people have told you, Mole; you can think for yourself is what I'm saying.
I'm not debating this any further with you because every letter typed is a letter wasted until you say what you think, not what you believe.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
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| matrix12345 |
Posted on 09/08/2012 17:16:46
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Junior Member
Posts: 38
Joined: 26.08.12
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The Hat of Love wrote:
Mole, please, like Ninja asked you, take a while to think for yourself. People have told you that this stuff is the truth all your life and you believe it. I hope some day you can think for yourself. If not stop believing in God, at least some day concede the overwhelming evidence that the Earth is ancient and that stories like Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark didn't actually happen.
What I would like to do here is go and find a small fraction of evidence for the age of the earth but, judging by your reactions so far, all you would do is throw it back at me and tell me that exactly what the Bible says is exactly true without actually thinking about it.
You don't have to just repeat what people have told you, Mole; you can think for yourself is what I'm saying.
I'm not debating this any further with you because every letter typed is a letter wasted until you say what you think, not what you believe.
I was not forced to be a Christian. I was given the choice. |
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 09/08/2012 21:15:35
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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Before we continue...
Matrix you are kinda being disrespectful and like Hat is saying, you throwing things back at him. I understand how you feel, but throwing things back is not gonna help you do what you want to do (which I guess is making everyone believe in your believes).
Like that it makes YOU look bad, also makes the whole God-believer community look bad.
We are not trying to attack no one, we are trying to get to a point. Which for this discussion the point will never be reached, but we can explain ourselves and believes like other animals can't lol...get it? |
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| matrix12345 |
Posted on 09/08/2012 22:19:02
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Junior Member
Posts: 38
Joined: 26.08.12
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ZA BrickSquad wrote:
Before we continue...
Matrix you are kinda being disrespectful and like Hat is saying, you throwing things back at him. I understand how you feel, but throwing things back is not gonna help you do what you want to do (which I guess is making everyone believe in your believes).
Like that it makes YOU look bad, also makes the whole God-believer community look bad.
We are not trying to attack no one, we are trying to get to a point. Which for this discussion the point will never be reached, but we can explain ourselves and believes like other animals can't lol...get it?
Sorry. I tend to get a bit...."over-reactive" when it comes to religion....my apologies mates. |
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 09/09/2012 00:21:36
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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It's okay, it happens to most of us or all lol.
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| ZA althor |
Posted on 09/09/2012 00:58:41
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Wanker
Posts: 794
Joined: 07.03.11
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as far as i can tell if you go back to adam and eve, they eat the forbidden fruit of knowledge. what knowledge was gained? that they were not like other animals, and that they were naked. so their sin was clothing and thinking? someone tried to convince me that evolution did not exist. i brought up the garden of eden, she said that the animals lived in harmony and did not eat one another. i asked why they do now, she replied that they changed. i asked her what the change of an entire species is called......evolution.
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| weeshuggy |
Posted on 09/09/2012 07:33:28
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Wanker
Posts: 785
Joined: 23.06.11
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"What I get from it is that the Church does not take the Bible literally. The Church does not disregard the scientific evidence, as you are, but says that evolution, however the universe came into existence, the formation of stars, etc. may have happened exactly like scientists say they did but under the influence of God."
SPOT ON.
large quantities of the bible is paraboles to explain in simple terms |
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| matrix12345 |
Posted on 09/09/2012 09:51:31
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Junior Member
Posts: 38
Joined: 26.08.12
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ZA althor wrote:
as far as i can tell if you go back to adam and eve, they eat the forbidden fruit of knowledge. what knowledge was gained? that they were not like other animals, and that they were naked. so their sin was clothing and thinking? someone tried to convince me that evolution did not exist. i brought up the garden of eden, she said that the animals lived in harmony and did not eat one another. i asked why they do now, she replied that they changed. i asked her what the change of an entire species is called......evolution.
Here is what I believe:
It is best if you debate this with a better theologian about this not just a person who barely knows anything except basic facts.
Ok. So Adam and Eve. 1st let me say this. They have no sinned yet and could not distinguish the difference between what is good and what is bad. They were tricked by Satan (in the form of a serpant) to eat a fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. By doing so, they "gained the knowledge of what is good and bad" so NOW they can tell distinguish what is right and wrong.
Now to the next thing. Animals did in fact live in harmony, because there was no sin in the world yet. They were all plant-eaters. Even Adam and Eve did not eat meat. But when Adam and Eve sinned against God and ate a fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the animals could now eat meat BECAUSE God allowed them to, not because of evolution.
Edited by matrix12345 on 09/09/2012 09:57:12 |
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| ninja |
Posted on 09/09/2012 16:51:25
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently, and I'd like to apologise for some of my comments in this thread. I have taken the time to try to think from the point of view of others, forgetting my own prejudices, and realised that they probably think exactly the same way about my perspective as I do theirs.
I'm still going to appeal to reason, logic and evidence, but I can understand that others don't necessarily have those same requirements for their beliefs.
I don't intend to become part of organised religion any time soon, because there is a large part of it with which I don't agree , as I'm sure you've seen expressed throughout this discussion. That said, for people who have taken the time to deliberate on the options given to them and chosen what they truly believe is right and proper, I have a lot of respect.
Thank you.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| ZA althor |
Posted on 09/10/2012 07:19:57
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Wanker
Posts: 794
Joined: 07.03.11
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Now to the next thing. Animals did in fact live in harmony, because there was no sin in the world yet. They were all plant-eaters. Even Adam and Eve did not eat meat. But when Adam and Eve sinned against God and ate a fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the animals could now eat meat BECAUSE God allowed them to, not because of evolution.
many animals, if they attempted to live off of plant matter would die within a week or two, also, in order to be an herbivore would need flat teeth for grinding instead of the sharp ones they posses. which brings us to the change of having flat teeth in the beginning, and sharp ones later.
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| matrix12345 |
Posted on 09/10/2012 07:33:32
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Junior Member
Posts: 38
Joined: 26.08.12
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ZA althor wrote:
many animals, if they attempted to live off of plant matter would die within a week or two, also, in order to be an herbivore would need flat teeth for grinding instead of the sharp ones they posses. which brings us to the change of having flat teeth in the beginning, and sharp ones later.
Or maybe God changed their features. He can do anything and nothing for Him is impossible. On this certain question I am quite unsure. I'm just a 13 year old still learning about God and His Word. I'll have to ask my teacher and I will get back to this question later. |
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| ZA althor |
Posted on 09/10/2012 08:17:16
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Wanker
Posts: 794
Joined: 07.03.11
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Or maybe God changed their features
whats the change of an entire species called?
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 09/10/2012 11:29:34
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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ZA althor wrote:
Or maybe God changed their features
whats the change of an entire species called?
Are you thinking of a word beginning with E?
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| ZA BrickSquad |
Posted on 09/10/2012 11:37:06
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 5303
Joined: 12.05.11
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The Hat of Love wrote:
ZA althor wrote:
Or maybe God changed their features
whats the change of an entire species called?
Are you thinking of a word beginning with E?
And rhymes with the Ferrari 599XX Evolution? =D
Edited by ZA BrickSquad on 09/10/2012 11:39:26 |
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| ninja |
Posted on 09/10/2012 13:00:29
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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Evolution doesn't necessarily imply Darwinian evolution - that is the theory which is 'powered' by Natural Selection. Theories of evolution existed before the current explanation - such as that of 'acquired characteristics' - you could very well have God as the 'power' behind evolution. That's a valid hypothesis for a theory of evolution. Just, scientifically speaking, there's 0 evidence for that (as far as I'm aware).
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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