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Debate 5: LGBT Rights
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| Vulture |
Posted on 06/13/2013 15:36:05
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Newbie
Posts: 0
Joined: 25.08.12
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Marriage should be done with a man and a woman. (Not the same sex.)
Ew @ same sex marriage. 
 Proud to be in the Jajaja group! |
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| JP |
Posted on 06/13/2013 16:16:43
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10.01.12
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za heystarface wrote:
How do you DEFINE marriage?
The union between two people
Do you think LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered/Transexual) couples should be allowed to marry and/or adopt children?
I think they should be allowed to marry not to adopt children. If two men or two women love each other why wont we let them be happy as a couple? but about the children, I dont think we should let them have children. The kids would grow up with that conduct and wont develop himself like its supposed to develop.
Do you think anyone has the right to tell another person who they can and cannot marry/love/have children with?
Not to marry because if they are in love, what can we do? but having children yes, because we must think on the childhood of the kid and how he will grow up
Should the government be allowed to say who someone can marry?
Sometimes
Should the church be allowed to say who someone can marry?
No
What does your faith, religion, upbringing say about same-sex marriages?
I'm catolic, of course they wont never and ever accept that, that's like a sin for them
Do you think being homosexual is a choice or something a person is born to be?
I read that gay people born with their hypothalamus bigger than the other people but this was from gay people with SIDA, so they dont know if it was because the virus or because they were gay.
I think everyone has that gen but some people develops it depending on the society and things that is around them
How would you feel if someone in ZA came out/was out of the closet?
Well just respect him/her because they are like us, normal people. I wouldnt feel umcomfortable provided that he/she doesnt bother me. I would talk to him/her normal, just how I always talk.
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| ODST |
Posted on 06/13/2013 16:33:40
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Super Admin
Posts: 2047
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On th point of kids jp, i think they should have em, its been showin that homosexuleness does not rub off on kids, it only is something wrong with the brain or how ones brain is like.
http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research
it doesn't rub off or very rarely.
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/13/2013 18:42:52
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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leave marriage as a term describing only a civil union between a man and a woman with civil union as a term describing ALL unions between spouses is my proposal.
@ODST - But why? If you're going to give them marriage in all but name why not just go the extra step and call it marriage? You've given your proposal but I don't know why you'd want that.
Ew @ same sex marriage.
@Vulture - Thank you for your insightful and intellectual contribution to the debate.
I dont think we should let them have children. The kids would grow up with that conduct and wont develop himself like its supposed to develop.
@JP - Do you have any evidence for this at all? Is it necessary for a child to have a mother and a father to 'develop like they're supposed to'? Is this why we don't allow single parents to raise kids oh wait, no, we do. Why would having two dads or two mums adversely affect a child in any way? I would much rather be raised by two loving dads than a mum and a dad who didn't care about me. Are you worried that would make me gay? Who cares? Why is that a bad thing? And consider that anyone who is adopting a child will have to have considered this decision and decided that they really want a child, as opposed to straight couples who may have just had a baby unplanned, you can be more sure that a gay couple is going to care about their children.
And hey, if you're not letting this child be adopted by a gay couple and they're just going to stay at the orphanage or wherever it is they've found themselves, who should run the orphanage, JP? Would it have to be a man and a woman taking care of the child?
I'll ask again, why would letting a gay couple raise a child have any more negative effects than letting the child be raised by a single parent or an orphanage? Or, in fact, by a straight couple?
On th point of kids jp, i think they should have em, its been showin that homosexuleness does not rub off on kids, it only is something wrong with the brain or how ones brain is like.
http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/new-study-on-homosexual-parents-tops-all-previous-research
it doesn't rub off or very rarely.
@ODST again - My thinking is that we are all born with our sexuality set. How we grow up and how open we are to new possibilities decides how much we are willing to explore that sexuality. So you're right in saying that a gay couple won't necessarily raise a gay child but I suspect that they're more likely to raise a child who is wiling to accept he's gay. If the child was bisexual and raised by a family who shared Vulture's well-informed views they would be more likely to repress their sexuality and act completely straight.
And we are talking like children being homosexual is a bad thing. Is it? Who cares what sexuality you are. It doesn't mean you've been raised wrong or have got something wrong with your brain, it just means your different. So even if gay couples did consistently raise gay children, why would we care? Being gay is not a disadvantageous position in life and if it is it's because people are unwilling to accept it.
Edited by The Hat of Love on 06/13/2013 18:49:38
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| ODST |
Posted on 06/13/2013 19:24:47
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Super Admin
Posts: 2047
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I meant not wrong but how it is like, srry, im bad at making my points very clarified. I agree completely there more open and honest, and on marriage thats pretty much about the term is my argument on the issue of literally letting them be married im fine with it but i dont think it should be called marrige, i.e. that has been used for male female marriage for many years and it ould ruin the term.
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| JP |
Posted on 06/13/2013 20:11:12
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 3379
Joined: 10.01.12
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I dont think we should let them have children. The kids would grow up with that conduct and wont develop himself like its supposed to develop.
@JP - Do you have any evidence for this at all? Is it necessary for a child to have a mother and a father to 'develop like they're supposed to'? Is this why we don't allow single parents to raise kids oh wait, no, we do. Why would having two dads or two mums adversely affect a child in any way? I would much rather be raised by two loving dads than a mum and a dad who didn't care about me. Are you worried that would make me gay? Who cares? Why is that a bad thing? And consider that anyone who is adopting a child will have to have considered this decision and decided that they really want a child, as opposed to straight couples who may have just had a baby unplanned, you can be more sure that a gay couple is going to care about their children.
What would think a kid if he/she sees his/her dads or moms kissing or w.e, dont you think that he/she would go and do what he/she saw in his/her house? dont you think that will be more chance that this kid grow up as a gay, because he/she is living in that environment? The first things you learn, you learn them in your house or dont you think that if he/she sees his/her dad and mom kissing would be more understandable for him/her and would grow up with a normal sexual direction and later depending on him would choose w.e he or her wants? If we let gay couple adopt kids this gay community would grow up a lot, I'm not saying its bad because their are normal people how we are but the right and logical thing is that couple would be man with woman not man with man or woman with woman
Are you worried that would make me gay? Who cares? Why is that a bad thing?
I'm not saying its a bad thing being gay, but dont you think that there is more chance that a kid become gay by living in that kind of environment?
Any person when he/she grow up has the moment to decide what sexuality would he/she choose that probably would be man with woman but if we let gay couple adopt kids would the number of gay people increase?
Imagine a world with more gay people than other people
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| ODST |
Posted on 06/13/2013 20:56:17
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Super Admin
Posts: 2047
Joined: 11.09.12
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jp read the study it proves your wr4ong they did it and 80 out of 80 cases with gay parents stayed STRAIGHT while 77 out of 80 with normal parents were straight!
�RG� (Renegade Gamers) Senior Admin
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| ninja |
Posted on 06/14/2013 10:02:21
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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JP wrote:
Imagine a world with more gay people than other people
I'm just going to pick up on this point with a short (under 20 minute) film that I found: http://www.youtub...nOJgDW0gPI
It does exactly that: explores a world where homosexuality is the norm and heterosexuality is shunned. If you have the time, I'd recommend watching it. It's very moving and thought-provoking, the last few minutes are especially distressing and revealing.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| ODST |
Posted on 06/14/2013 11:14:20
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Super Admin
Posts: 2047
Joined: 11.09.12
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lol ninja i was thinking of the same thing . i watched thay movie a month or 2 ago it was so sad, but it truly shows how bad bullying is, people are just the way they are dont shun em or hate them, accept them for who they are. Everyone's different and special in here own way
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| weeshuggy |
Posted on 06/14/2013 11:49:31
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Wanker
Posts: 785
Joined: 23.06.11
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I would Just like to add, that Catholics don't consider "being gay" a sin, the sin is to act upon those urges. I know the hypocrisy...... (I am Catholic btw). |
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| Revenge |
Posted on 06/14/2013 15:05:48
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Super Admin
Posts: 1297
Joined: 28.06.12
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How do you DEFINE marriage?
The bond (whether it be legal or not) between a man and a woman.
How did you come to learn that definition?
Life experience and observing world news.
Do you think LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered/Transexual) couples should be allowed to marry and/or adopt children?
Absolutely not. I am not going to make an argument as it will be crushed by the majority of people in ZÅ. I've argued this topic enough.
Do you think anyone has the right to tell another person who they can and cannot marry/love/have children with?
This question is designed to make people who are against gay marriage/unions look like morons. I'm not going to have society tell me who I can/can't marry, that's ludicrous.
Should the government be allowed to say who someone can marry?
If the government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. In that sense, government is fair. This somewhat contradicts what I said above, however.
Should the church be allowed to say who someone can marry?
According to my faith, yes.
What does your faith, religion, upbringing say about same-sex marriages?
As a bible-believing Christian, I am bound to say that same-sex marriage/unions are an abomination.
Do you think being homosexual is a choice or something a person is born to be?
It is a choice, saying there is a gene that spreads homosexuality is nonsense.
Should the LGBT Civil Rights Movement be taught in public schools the way Women's and African American's Civil Rights is taught in schools?
No. It should not be.
Should LGBT couples be allowed to show public displays of affection in public schools?
No, that would mean I am okay with this whole concept of gay marriage.
How would you feel if someone in ZA came out/was out of the closet?
I wouldn't feel anything. Being homosexual doesn't make them any less of a human than I am.
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/14/2013 15:06:33
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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i dont think it should be called marrige, i.e. that has been used for male female marriage for many years and it ould ruin the term.
@ODST - Well, by your own definition marriage is between spouses; not husband and wife, spouses. Male-female is what we're normally referring to but the definition of marriage has been changing for centuries; there's no reason not to change it to include same sex partnerships. Gay marriage is already legal in many countries and I haven't head of people considering it ruined: "Damn, I'm not gonna marry the person I love because two other people who don't affect who also love each other have married."
@JP - You keep saying that you don't think homosexuality isn't wrong but you also keep talking like children being brought up gay is a bad thing. To be frank, I don't believe you when you say you think being gay is fine. I'm not saying you're homophobic but I don't think you're comfortable with the idea of it. If you were completely fine with it, I don't think children being brought up gay would bother you and you wouldn't be talking about there being more gay people like it was a bad thing.
my signature broke, here is a fox snek:
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/14/2013 15:20:24
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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@Revenge - I know you said you don't want to argue this or whatever but I did want to point out that all of your views on homosexuality seem to stem from your religion. And you're right, the book of Leviticus says that acting upon homosexuality is a sin. It also bans tattoos:
Leviticus 19:28: "You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord."
It bans polyester:
Leviticus 19:19: "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."
Braided hair and wearing gold are out:
Timothy 2:9: "Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments."
Shellfish are detestable:
Leviticus 11:10: "But whatever is in the seas and in the rivers that does not have fins and scales among all the teeming life of the water, and among all the living creatures that are in the water, they are detestable things to you."
Round haircuts:
Leviticus 19:27: "You shall not round off the side-growth of your heads nor harm the edges of your beard."
And American football
"You shall not eat of their [pigs'] flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you."
As a bible-believing Christian, are you also campaigning for the delegalisation of shellfish? Do you feel sick whenever you see someone pick up a football? Are you shocked by women wearing costly garments? I expect not. The bible bans a lot of things. (Here is a list form the ever-reliable Tumblr: http://leviticusb...umblr.com/. It does list the Bible verses from Leviticus though so you can cross-reference it on an online Bible if you doubt anything it says.) Why are you only against homosexuality and not all these other things?
Perhaps, if you'll allow me to suggest it, in between all the allowing slavery, the women being inferior to men, the things that it bans for reasons known only to God, the Bible is not the best guide for modern life two thousand years on.
Edited by The Hat of Love on 06/14/2013 15:21:33
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| Revenge |
Posted on 06/14/2013 15:33:58
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Super Admin
Posts: 1297
Joined: 28.06.12
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Its pretty offensive when I read things like that, as many of those passages have second meaning and are taken out of context. Other than that, Hat, I have nothing else to say. I am not the brightest person when it comes to these things, hell, I'm more of an idiot than anything. So, please, judge away.
Also, its good not to take the Bible so literally in some places. The Bible says not to work on the Sabbath, all that really means is take some time out of your week and relax.
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| ODST |
Posted on 06/14/2013 15:34:49
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Super Admin
Posts: 2047
Joined: 11.09.12
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god damn it i thought i posted that i mwant between a man and a woman thought i corrected that in one of my previeous posts lol i read on wikipedia as spouse and i got that term lodged in my head when i wrote it.
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| weeshuggy |
Posted on 06/14/2013 15:42:13
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Wanker
Posts: 785
Joined: 23.06.11
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Marriage is the joining of man and women, and to complete the vows you need to have sex. Two people of the same gender cant have "sex". Therefor two people of the same sex cannot complete the marrital vows.
Also the no religion is perfect, not everyone wil believe everthing to he letter. For example Im catholic and go to mass every sunday but I by no means believe evey word of he bible nor do I agree with every teaching but I do feel its the closest to what I believe.
Also although I dont think lgbt shouldnt not be allowed to raise couples, not having a male/female influence will with out a doubt effect the child |
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 06/14/2013 15:46:42
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Revenge wrote:
Its pretty offensive when I read things like that, as many of those passages have second meaning and are taken out of context. Other than that, Hat, I have nothing else to say. I am not the brightest person when it comes to these things, hell, I'm more of an idiot than anything. So, please, judge away.
Also, its good not to take the Bible so literally in some places. The Bible says not to work on the Sabbath, all that really means is take some time out of your week and relax.
If you can show me that the examples I have used are different to what the Bible says about homosexuality then I will retract and apologise for my remarks.
weeshuggy wrote:
Also although I dont think lgbt shouldnt not be allowed to raise couples, not having a male/female influence will with out a doubt effect the child
But in this way is a gay couple raising a child any different from a single parent raising a child? They won't have a male and female influence either.
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| weeshuggy |
Posted on 06/14/2013 17:01:09
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Wanker
Posts: 785
Joined: 23.06.11
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I do completely agree Hat but single parents tend to be for a reason, like not knowing wgo the father is or getting away from the father to avoid an abusive up bringing for the child. A lbgt couple will be adopting, that is a choice that can be avoided. Not saying a dont think they shouldnt be allowed to but its something to think about |
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| tim |
Posted on 06/27/2013 14:25:28
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Member
Posts: 164
Joined: 09.10.11
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I think when people say that one shouldn't take the bible "literally" at certain points makes it hard for me to see the bible's credibility.
Also for the double meaning to certain passages, well, what's to stop the passage on homosexuality on having a double meaning, or any other. I'm just pointing out there, that these things come down to human interpretation, and human's are known for their errors.
I personally define marriage as two people who truly love each other wanting to show their commitment through a man made ceremony. Nothing more.
What about polygamy in the bible? Concubines? Any of that ring a bell? Also, there is a seperation of church and state and the freedom to marry should not be limited by the church or the government for that matter.
In history, interracial marriages or the thought of a black man touching or marrying a white woman was abhorrent and considered a sin by many people in the 19th-20th century, but nowadays it's looked as normal.
I believe in the future, this whole gay marriage fiasco which doesn't affect any straight people whatsoever will be gone forever.
Allowing homosexuals to marry=/=the end of the world. Also, gay couples raising children will not equate to the child being gay. If he likes women, then he won't just stop liking women simply because his parents are two men.
In conclusion, LGBT people are humans like the rest of us and their love and concern for eachother shouldn't affect us in any way and they should be accepted and granted equal rights like every other straight person in this world.
If someone in ZA were to come out, I would be in full support of them and I would be happy for them. Frankly, I feel sorry for the LGBT community from all the disdain they recieve from the public.
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| SpartanJaz |
Posted on 06/27/2013 16:14:01
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Junior Member
Posts: 34
Joined: 13.08.12
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JP wrote:
Imagine a world with more gay people than other people
We would eventually have a massive decrease in the human population and then we might actually be able to feed those remaining at a high quality level. Not such a bad thing really.
However, yeah, it would mean we would have a lot less reproduction. I doubt it would come to a stop completely though. It's natural for all creatures to bond in order to reproduce. Love is just a ridiculous illusion we as humans have created and though some can ignore their actual instincts, many cannot and they will continue to reproduce naturally.
If not, well, we have artificial reproduction. In the next few decades, we'll probably get rid of any practical issues with it and then the only thing against the concept will be morals. But then, society has changed its mind a lot in the past i.e. women's rights, the Protestant Church, etc.
Anyway, I completely disagree with homosexuals and I think it could be considered a disorder, especially considering the other nonsense that's classified as disorders. It's likely caused by what a lot of people would call a horrible childhood i.e. being pulled away from the opposite sex (boys' schools, etc) and other idiocy.
However, I don't think that they should be oppressed. They are still people and they deserve rights just like the rest of us.
Considering thus, getting back on topic, let's just define marriage as it should be defined.
Marriage is an ancient ritual predating any historical evidence available to us. We have no provable idea as to when people decided to start making their relationships official in such a manner. This of course means that we also don't know who started the tradition.
However, we do know that it's a lot more likely that the Pagans(Celts) started the tradition than the Christians, since marriage is even shown by the bible to predate Christianity.(JESUS WAS JEWISH. Just saying...)
We should then note that the Pagans don't actually care who marries. Anybody was/is allowed to marry through a handfasting.
Considering this, we should note that we have no evidence whatsoever to prove that marriage is anything more than a ritual designed to bind ANY two people together officially. Thus, despite what the egotistical heads of the Catholic Church may think, we have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to deny anybody the right to marry.
Edited by SpartanJaz on 06/27/2013 16:19:48 |
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