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Debate 18: Faith In Humanity (#1: Homosexuality)
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 08/13/2012 18:02:01
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Like Ninja said, homosexuality occurs in nature, it is natural. Whatever you believe it to be, unnatural isn't the word.
Yes, homosexuality doesn't help us evolutionarily but to say it's 'leading us to destruction' just isn't true.
And like I pointed out, just because you're heterosexual doesn't mean you procreate. Are those people also 'unnatural'?
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| Mator |
Posted on 08/13/2012 18:08:56
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Senior Member
Posts: 265
Joined: 28.06.12
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The Hat of Love wrote:
Like Ninja said, homosexuality occurs in nature, it is natural. Whatever you believe it to be, unnatural isn't the word.
Yes, homosexuality doesn't help us evolutionarily but to say it's 'leading us to destruction' just isn't true.
And like I pointed out, just because you're heterosexual doesn't mean you procreate. Are those people also 'unnatural'?
Read my post.
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 08/13/2012 18:59:28
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Search 'homosexuality human gene sequence'.
Here's one result: http://genderxy.o...
I believe that homosexuality is something you are born with. It might be affected by the environment but mostly it's just who you are.
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| Mator |
Posted on 08/14/2012 01:27:36
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Senior Member
Posts: 265
Joined: 28.06.12
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The Hat of Love wrote:
Search 'homosexuality human gene sequence'.
Here's one result: http://genderxy.o...
I believe that homosexuality is something you are born with. It might be affected by the environment but mostly it's just who you are.
I won't believe that until I see it in a textbook.
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 08/14/2012 09:32:59
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Is it really much of a stretch to believe that homosexuality is just something you're born with in the same way that most people are born with heterosexuality? And if it's an environmental thing, why, as I've said, doesn't everyone in the same environment turn out gay? And why do people from all kinds of environments turn out gay?
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| ninja |
Posted on 08/14/2012 10:03:27
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Super Admin
Posts: 4174
Joined: 15.11.10
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People living in very similar, but different, ways will be affected differently by environmental factors.
It's not socially acceptable to carry out an experiment with people in exactly the same environment. That would be the only way to test the hypothesis, really.
I would guess that's it's a combination of the two: genetic and environmental.
My brain is open.
- Paul Erdős |
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| Mator |
Posted on 08/14/2012 12:26:24
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Senior Member
Posts: 265
Joined: 28.06.12
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The Hat of Love wrote:
Is it really much of a stretch to believe that homosexuality is just something you're born with in the same way that most people are born with heterosexuality? And if it's an environmental thing, why, as I've said, doesn't everyone in the same environment turn out gay? And why do people from all kinds of environments turn out gay?
Yes, it definitely is. I'm a strong proponent of nurture in the nature vs. nurture debate, and I think people attribute WAY TOO MUCH to genetic code.
Environmental factors are not some simple thing you can quantize as simply as "exposure to environment A leads to B", you have to take a sum of all the previous experiences a human being has had before being able to make any statement about the way an environment will affect them. Thus the only way to truly determine this properly would be to have two twins with the same genetic code separated at birth and brought up in two totally different environments with different experiences. One environment would *supposedly* provide the child with an inclination to like members of the same sex while the other would do the opposite.
This experiment would take something close to ~20 years, and would have to be extremely carefully managed. Any unplanned outside factors could, in theory, ruin the experiment. Everything would have to be controlled. The experiment itself would be deemed inhuman as it would essentially have the goal of crafting a personality by means of science, and it probably wouldn't be plausible.
However, I stand by my *belief* that experiences are far more influential in this sort of situation than genetics, and have evidence which backs up my belief sufficiently for my liking.
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 08/14/2012 13:08:18
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Ok, so if it is environmental, does that make it less 'natural'?
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| tim |
Posted on 08/14/2012 13:56:58
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Member
Posts: 164
Joined: 09.10.11
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Everyone seems to have their own beliefs but I like TheHatofLove believe that one can be born gay.
Environmental causes could be the reason why some people are gay and it could be that we are born gay which is why we are gay. Some people call them unnatural, sinners, weirdos, normal people, etc.
The fact of the matter is that there is no way to tell why a person is a homosexual. If we are born homosexual are we not born murderers? If the environment so drastically influences me am I still on a clean slate for my life since the environment shaped me this way and I am not at fault?
Truth is, the matter of why Humans have homosexual relations is still a subject investigated on and a clear definitive answer for being born gay or environmental factors attributing to homosexuality has not been found yet. As far as scientific publications go there aren't really any on this subject that go IN depth on the matter of being homosexual. There aren't any great links on the internet and most of the literature available are scientific journals which cost money in order to view. Basically, there's no way to tell at this moment since both sides arguing are beliefs and not facts. |
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| Mator |
Posted on 08/14/2012 14:12:27
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Senior Member
Posts: 265
Joined: 28.06.12
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The Hat of Love wrote:
Ok, so if it is environmental, does that make it less 'natural'?
The definition of natural is unclear. Also, see my original post.
tim wrote:
Everyone seems to have their own beliefs but I like TheHatofLove believe that one can be born gay.
Environmental causes could be the reason why some people are gay and it could be that we are born gay which is why we are gay. Some people call them unnatural, sinners, weirdos, normal people, etc.
The fact of the matter is that there is no way to tell why a person is a homosexual. If we are born homosexual are we not born murderers? If the environment so drastically influences me am I still on a clean slate for my life since the environment shaped me this way and I am not at fault?
Just because the environment influences you strongly does not mean you do not have free will. There are always choices.
tim wrote:
Truth is, the matter of why Humans have homosexual relations is still a subject investigated on and a clear definitive answer for being born gay or environmental factors attributing to homosexuality has not been found yet. As far as scientific publications go there aren't really any on this subject that go IN depth on the matter of being homosexual. There aren't any great links on the internet and most of the literature available are scientific journals which cost money in order to view. Basically, there's no way to tell at this moment since both sides arguing are beliefs and not facts.
Correct. So why are we still here?
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| ZA Luna |
Posted on 08/14/2012 15:20:34
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I got a big blue star for posting. i must be special
Posts: 1723
Joined: 16.11.10
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Some people call them unnatural, sinners, weirdos, normal people, etc.
What does this add to your argument? Just curious. It's very off-subject in comparison to the rest of it.
The fact of the matter is that there is no way to tell why a person is a homosexual. If we are born homosexual are we not born murderers? If the environment so drastically influences me am I still on a clean slate for my life since the environment shaped me this way and I am not at fault?
Not everything has to do with genetics or 'environmental factors'. What about free will. Can someone not choose to be gay later on in life?
Edited by ZA Luna on 08/14/2012 15:21:06
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 08/14/2012 15:25:36
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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you can't choose not to be homosexual if you are. you can choose as much as you like but some things won't change.
and there's no definitive answer to whether there's a God either and that took up many months.
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| ZA Luna |
Posted on 08/14/2012 15:50:38
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I got a big blue star for posting. i must be special
Posts: 1723
Joined: 16.11.10
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I know someone who told me they weren't always gay. I'm not saying all homosexuals simply chose to be gay, just that genetics isn't always going to be the reason for it.
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 08/14/2012 16:04:20
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Possibly, probably more likely that they didn't quite realise their full sexuality. Perhaps people choose to be gay because underneath that's what they are (seems likely enough). I read a post recently about someone who tried really hard to become gay but couldn't cos they just weren't. Not saying it's definitive proof or anything but I still think that by the time you hit about, I don't know, 16 or 17, you've realised and set your sexuality.
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| ZA Luna |
Posted on 08/14/2012 18:08:42
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I got a big blue star for posting. i must be special
Posts: 1723
Joined: 16.11.10
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I don't think you even know what you are when you're a kid. It all starts around puberty.
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 08/14/2012 18:09:14
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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Well, yes, that's why I said 16 or 17
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| Mator |
Posted on 08/14/2012 19:41:48
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Senior Member
Posts: 265
Joined: 28.06.12
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Luna has a good point, there is a lot of choice involved. Whether or not someone is homosexual is defined by whether or not they pursue intercourse with members of the same sex, thereby a person can choose to be or not to be a homosexual at any given time.
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| The Hat of Love |
Posted on 08/15/2012 08:25:11
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ShawnPeezy
Posts: 9035
Joined: 31.07.11
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ho·mo·sex·u·al/g6;hōməg2;sekSHov2;oəl/
Adjective:
(of a person) Sexually attracted to people of one's own sex.
Noun:
A person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex.
I don't think you have to actively pursue sex to be considered a homosexual. You're still attracted, that's the point.
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| ZA Googly |
Posted on 08/15/2012 10:52:35
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Numpty
Posts: 1251
Joined: 14.11.10
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To put my two sense homosexuallity doesn't only occur in humans but it hundreds of other species of animals. Only homophobia occurs in humans however.
I hate lag |
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| Mator |
Posted on 08/15/2012 14:29:14
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Senior Member
Posts: 265
Joined: 28.06.12
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ZA Googly wrote:
To put my two sense homosexuallity doesn't only occur in humans but it hundreds of other species of animals. Only homophobia occurs in humans however.
Mator wrote:
Now I will look to the functions of animals in regards to homosexuality. Take apes for instance. Apes are only a short way down the evolutionary tree from humans. Apes do indeed exhibit homosexual behavior, usually as a means to assert dominance within the group. It can be noted, however, that a predisposition to only engage in homosexual behavior when heterosexual behavior is possible is a rarity:
"Although homosexual behavior is very common in the animal world, it seems to be very uncommon that individual animals have a long-lasting predisposition to engage in such behavior to the exclusion of heterosexual activities. Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity. One species in which exclusive homosexual orientation occurs, however, is that of domesticated sheep (Ovis aries). About 10% of rams (males) refuse to mate with ewes (females) but do readily mate with other rams."
http://en.wikiped...in_animals
The Hat of Love wrote:
ho·mo·sex·u·al/g6;hōməg2;sekSHov2;oəl/
Adjective:
(of a person) Sexually attracted to people of one's own sex.
Noun:
A person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex.
I don't think you have to actively pursue sex to be considered a homosexual. You're still attracted, that's the point.
I don't agree with the definition then, or rather, I still don't agree that people who ever *are* homosexual always *were* homosexual. I have plenty of reasons to think this way.
Edited by Mator on 08/15/2012 14:32:20
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